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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/11/2008 10:39:44
Missiles in PVP are, in general, far more effective than before.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.24 09:02:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Tobin Shalim
Originally by: Turin
Originally by: Mallikan
Missiles are fine, my Drake actually performed better at killing belt rats last night then before. Maybe you should.. mm.. learn to fit?
This is the problem though. A drake can out perform a raven, when attacking a BS sized target. My drake fit with heavy missles was able to out damage my raven fit with cruise launchers. The target was another raven.
Please explain how that is balanced. Please.
quoting for emphasis.
i have noticed the same thing myself, in tests i've done.
You're doing it wrong. 
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.24 11:26:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Karille
Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:55
Edited by: Karille on 24/11/2008 11:24:33
Originally by: mattbucci
lol...cuz that makes me feel so much better...oh boy now i still have low dps my cruises go from 200 damage to 50 damage when a angel warlord MWD's which is what they do....and now missles have become totaly worthless in pvp unless your target is going to sit there and stare at u
That's a problem with the NPC, not the missiles. Npcs don't get the MWD sig penalty like players do. Just wait till it's in orbit range and it slows down.
They do, and mattbucci has no idea what he's talking about.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:22:00 -
[4]
Maybe you should train some skills.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.25 14:52:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/11/2008 14:55:11
Quote:
Insiginificant dps vs most targets(you dont need an AB to speedtank , a vaga with no mods fitted speedtanks light missiles)up to 100 km ranges where long range ammo makes some turret snipers inferior.
Vagabond with no mods? And what was I saying about absurd, unrealistic situations? 
How much HM/Cruise damage were you getting against a MWDing Vaga - or any nanoed ship - before the patch? And how much now?
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.25 15:18:00 -
[6]
And 500% self-painters. 
Well, it gets about a 50% damage reduction from HMs at ~3 km/s. Which is a million miles away from the previous 1% damage (although yes it had to slow down to actually hit an orbiting target under the old mechanics).
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.26 15:42:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/11/2008 15:42:35
Originally by: Haradgrim
I tried an experiment last night engaging a shield buffer tanked vaga (so it had an increased sig radius from the extender(s)) with a target painting raven. With overloaded 6 x faction torps (EM) on it 5 x t2 med drones (hammerheads) and having the vaga scrammed (as in he couldn't MWD) he was able to orbit me at slowboat speed at 2km off and speed tank both my torps and my t2 drones to a point where they did insignificant damage (he was at 80% shield when I died).
....and this WAS target painted 
Your torps are still more effective against a Vaga than they were before QR. Also, why on Earth were you using EM torps against a Vaga?
And yeah, webbing him would have been far more effective than MWD-scrambling.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.27 17:46:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 27/11/2008 17:48:06
Skill points are no substitute for knowledge. Like the knowledge that fitting an AB to a battleship is completely stupid in PVP.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.11 09:12:00 -
[9]
I don't think Khamal has ever flown a missile ship either, tbh. Or maybe he's just terrible at it.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.11 09:54:00 -
[10]
Well, I have no idea how you used to fly missile ships, or how you want to fly them. But missile ship damage is not, and never was, bad - neither the paper EFT damage, nor the "damage dealt" sums in game. They do not handle smaller targets "worse" than guns, they handle them differently.
HAMs and torps are unchanged in their ability to deliver full DPS against PVP-fit BCs and BS, respectively.
LMs are now capable of damaging all frigates - and since frigates have feeble tanks some degree of damage mitigation is fairly inconsequential.
HMs are vastly superior now.
Rockets and Cruise have problems - rockets require a web that is difficult to fit on a frigate, and Cruise is an antisupport weapon that simply isn't used much against its theoretical target of other BS.
I am delighted with the performance of missiles since the patch. They are far more useful in combat.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.11 12:10:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 11/12/2008 12:15:43
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Gypsio III
HAMs and torps are unchanged in their ability to deliver full DPS against PVP-fit BCs and BS, respectively.
All a BS has to do is move >160m/s to reduce T1/faction torp damage, when it's sig is painted up to 650, and the shooter has perfect skills. 100m/s for Rage.
Didn't check BC's yet, but they should no doubt get reduced dmg even sooner.
Because every BS fits an AB or has a base speed over 160m/s?
BS with ABs?
BS with ABs that are immune to webs?
Please, less of this clueless EFT theorycraft and more realistic situations. AB on a BS is stupid, and the AB speed-tank largely disappears as soon as you get webbed, which you will be.
And before you start screaming that you now need to fit a web and painter on your Raven:
Close-range weapons have always needed a web to keep the target tackled.
Raven isn't a solo boat, nor should it be; your gang has one web at least.
Torp Raven has always needed a painter to get full damage on all non-Caldari tier 1-2 BS.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.11 15:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Qui Shon
There's no eft in my calcs ;-)
And you don't get most BS's up to 650 sig with just one painter from a Raven.
Say Raven vs Phoon, 1 painter. Phoon will take 9% reduced dmg at it's base speed, with skilled pilot, aka 160m/s.
Is that significant? Whether it is, or isn't, it still shows the situation isn't unchanged, asyou said it was.
Or a Harbinger as target. It will take 13% reduction when moving without propulsion mods.
But sure, sure, when any BS or BC is triple painted and webbed from your gang of ships, then torps will do full damage. Hell, you can probably even use Rage's on Battelships.
Oh, this is just stupid. The situation is broadly unchanged in practice - just not in your fantasy world of unwebbed BS travelling at max speeds.
1. Base speed is largely irrelevant. You hardly ever shoot at a target travelling at base speed, especially not with close-range weapons, because you need to have your target webbed to stop it getting away.
2. Typhoon has a tiny (for a BS) sig and is a terrible example to give. Even so, a webbed, painted Typhoon will take about 97% damage when going flat out - which it won't be, it'll be trying to manoeuvre in some fashion.
3. Harbinger isn't a BS.
Quote:
Rockets suck epically, but they sucked epically before anyway, so still noone will use them.
- standard launchers look fine to me.
- Heavy launchers got smacked good, but generally there is a balance to what they've done to them, even if it is a tiny OTT in my opinion. Precision missiles should be a tiny bit more effective then they currently are imo.
- Heavy Assault Launchers were overpowered and due for a nerf we were told anyway. Still work ok.
- Cruise missiles I found only did max damage against a non AB or MWDing Battleship at full speed when used with 2 target painters, was odd, but the damage they do normally is still semi reasonable at about 65% of the max.
- Torpedoes, these hit for seriously pathetic damage against battleships that arent webbed. They're a bit of a joke now in my opinion. Your fitting requirements are also very strained fitting even 5 of 6 siege launchers. The torpedo raven setups I've tried are completely made of fail. Blaster rokh was a much more preferable and workable choice.
Yeah rockets have problems, because the frigates that they're mounted on often have trouble fitting a web, and frigates are the only ship class where it's really sensible to fit an AB. Still, their 10 km range is nice, especially compared to the difficulty of getting to blaster/AC optimal.
LMs: easier to mitigate damage, impossible for inties to avoid it now. Since frigates typically don't have much tank, overall this is an improvement.
HMs: vastly superior to before, when it was trivial for a speed-fit cruiser to avoid their damage almost completely.
Cruise. You don't need two painters, Cruise will do ~90% damage against a base-speed (for what that's worth) Typhoon. Cruise's problem is one of role - you don't use it to shoot BS, it's used to hit cruiser-sized support, especially ewar platforms. on one hand, those ships can't now avoid Cruise damage simply by hitting MWD; on the other, their damage taken while not MWD is significantly less than before.
HAMs: Unchanged in practice - a webbed ABing Hurricane takes full damage from Rage.
Torps: Unchanged in practice - your BS needs to webbed and painted as much as before.
Precisions: made almost pointless by gimped range and minimal superiority over CN.
Also bear in mind that any analysis of the value of missiles needs to consider the greater difficulty of turret ships in getting to and staying at optimal, then tracking once they get there. This greatly favours HAMs/torps over blasters/ACs.
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